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Jiu-Jiteiros C2C
Jiu-Jiteiros C2C

Episode · 8 months ago

Psychadelics episode w/Dr. Celisa Flores PsyD.

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We're running back our most downloaded episode. Dr. Celisa Flores PsyD joins the guys and discusses some of the promising work being done in the mental health field using psychedelics to help treat chemical dependencies, depression, and various other mental health issues. Also Alfonso shares the medical advantages of drinking coronas in a float tank.

An interview w/Dr. Celisa Flores PsyD. From tripping on mushrooms in high school for fun to being used as therapy to treat mental health issues. Fascinating conversation and LOTS of questions answered. 

This is the motivation. All right, welcome everybody to another episode of Jiujitdental's coast to coast. We have a very first doctor to the PODCAST. We like to welcome Dr to Lisa Flora's PhD the show. Welcome Dr Fors. How you doing? It is hey, thanks for having me. I'm doing really well. Awesome, awesome. Hey, I just want to say thank you again for joining us, thank you for adding some legitimacy to the show. We kind of just been weeding it so far, and you're a pro dude. You're a real doctor and we're going to talk about a real our first serious topic on the show, which we've never done in in the past, and so I'll fall to you. Want to kick it off, man? Let us let the listeners know what we're going to be talking about today. Yeah, of course, man. And first I have a correction. I was just corrected. It's Se Lissa Flora's Sid, not PhD. So on my bass, my bass, don't want to apologize, but today we're going to be talking about psychedelics. It's just a topic that I've been hearing about. For example, I had one of my training partners say that he's doing my credosing with mushrooms here and there and it helps him, you know, with his everyday routine and it makes me feel better and he feels, like you can flow better when he's training. So I thought being interesting topic to bring up on the PODCAST. I want to first talk about have you ever had a trip? You know, I want to share my experience of psychedelics and I don't know if the rest of you guys want to do the same thing. Mind you, my experience has been very limited, you know, back in college, doing some, you know, things here and they're experimenting, but as to I remember is just, you know, the sense of feeling when one time I was doing mushrooms on a camping trip, just very relaxed kind of experience, you know, kind of just a sense of euphor you and just like presentness, like I didn't feel like I was worried about anything in the future or kind of like anxious about anything to pass, just kind of being in the moment and joining the scenery and just kind of like writing, writing it out, and that was kind of fun and then so that's been one of my experiences. I don't know if you want to talk about it frank. Yeah, yeah, I mean like, just like you, I'm superlimited, but I have had some experiences, you know, and so I remember that same camping trip. You know, I remember being surrounded with a group of awesome friends. I remember the environment like just like we were just having a good time. We had a campfire, we had food, we were drinking, you were sharing stories, and then and then we took a couple caps or you know, and then a little bit later just I just felt like the bit. The best way to describe it would be to just say like it was just like I was on my body, felt like I was on an edible, like on a weed edible, like a Brownie, crying right, you know, just like tingling and whatnot. But I remember they kicked in when I looked up at the stars. Yeah, for some reason I like knotted or like I turned my head a real quick and the stars like faded in the sky like when I like when you watch star wars and they're going to jump into the hyperspace and all the stars like I was like, Oh shit, cool. So then I start I just started waving my head like left to right so that I can see the stars, like swaying side to side, you know right. But I didn't feel afraid or I didn't see anything that that made me not want to continue or made me worry, you know right. I just remember feeing feeling good. It was a good experience for me. Yeah, I mean I shared a lot of same things and looking at a campfire kind of made me feel similar to what you experience with the stars. So a question that I have for you, Se Lisa, is, like, is that a standard thing that you that you see because you've been studying psychedelics correct in your studies, have you come across as this is a regular experience and what might cause that experience or like what causes those feelings in like things like mushrooms? Yeah, I think for sure this is a super common experience for a lot of people.

Like my understanding is, so there's therapeutic uses of psychedelic but there it's mushrooms or any of the other psychedelics, and and then there's recreational or what's called recreational. I really think that recreation is medicine. You know, if we have life that we need to take a break from, then we then that's medicine at that point, right. And so I do think that people do support like having that experience of feeling very calm, feeling very present, feeling very focused, and also, you know, I know lots of people who had the intention of having a recreational experience and then actually to address some trauma or some psychological issues that they had right there in that moment and didn't really anticipate that or plan for that, and so I do think that's kind of the experience people have with what they call bad trips. Is, you know, like you you were hanging out with a group of friends and everybody is on their own experience and this moment, so they're not really no one prepared to deal with like some really heavychological issues at that point. So I mean, I've heard it go both ways for sure, and I know you guys know a little bit about my history, but I grew up in a place that wasn't the safest in in the most present states of consciousness. So I didn't experiment with psychedelics much prior to really being an adult and not being in that environment, and I only have most of my experience with psychedelic therapeutic sense. So it's a very different experience. There's a guide and there's an intention of doing this deep psychological work and sometimes it happen and sometimes it doesn't, but I think that can come up, whether it's whether it was the plan or not. So I do think that's something I try to caution people about. Is that if, if they're planning to take psychedelics, known history of whether it's trauma or, you know family histories of psychological issues or their own histories, just to be aware that that could be something that very easily comes to the surface that they're going to have to deal with in the midst of, you know, maybe a party or whatever. What right? Yes, they choose to take it in. Okay. And is there to have you seen, maybe your studies, like a pattern as to when somebody might experience a situation like that, when they're gonna have more of an intense kind of experience, maybe negative, like is there like a head space that you see traditionally happening people, people having when they have those experiences? Was Negative experiences? In all honesty, no, I don't. You know, I think that psychedelics you get what you need, not necessarily what want. Ah, okay, so you might have wanted have a pleasant recreational experience with your friends. But that's not always the case and there's there's not necessarily any way to anticipate that. I do think, you know, there's a big in the psychedelic community. We have a strong sense of the set, which is your mindset, and the setting have a big impact on that Um. But you know, I mean I think, I think that you could take all the cautions that you think you need to and still have a real experience that you didn't anticipate. Gotcha. Gotcha, Frank. Anything to add there? No, no, I'm just I'm just quietly listening over here, you know, and I was just going to ask the same thing, you know, because I've heard like a I don't know if you would call this a misconception, but I've heard people in the past say, you know, hey, let's do a let's do a mushroom trip on offul. I'm just I'm not in a good place right now. I've I don't want any demons coming out or you know, and I mean I don't know, I mean I've never I mean other than a camp trip. I don't know what's going to come out. And I write I consider myself like a generally mentally healthy person and...

...if there's anything ever bothering me, I usually like talk about it right away, you know, and so I've heard that several times, you know. Yeah, I think that's a really healthy space to operate from that a lot of people don't operate from the space I just talked about. My problems when they come up like that's really way more rare for most people. But, you know, I it's interesting because I think that people, even people who thought that they've worked through a lot of their stuff. I know a lot of people who have done lots of therapy and still had really intense experiences with psychedelics that it didn't just in anticipate. Yeah, yeah, because I've heard, I mean, I'm who knows that they're true or not. I've heard people's trips before and I've heard experiences where people were like, I saw car toobs and they were coming out of the TV, and I've also heard people say like full they were coming for me, so I jumped out the window right, you know, like so. So, I mean, I don't know. So what are what maybe, Dr Flors, what would be some misconceptions, you know, that people might have about psychedelics that maybe they that would keep them on the fence, or maybe they just wouldn't even consider this as a form of therapy or medicine, you know right. So I think that there's misconceptions going both directions. I think one misconception is that people that want to use psychedelics just want to have, you know, this fun recreational experience and that there's in a therapeutic value and that's that was sort of what the DEA decided, you know, quite some time ago in the in the s that this had that psychedelics had no medical value. That was kind of of they ended all research because their sense was that it was highly addictive and that it has no medical value. And only recently we've maybe been able to start researching again and there's actually really strong evidence that psychedelics can provide a lot of value in terms of treating treatment resistant depression, tsd physical conditions. So there's lots of research that's now. But that was one big misconception that I think a lot of people carry, and I know that people from those generations also based a lot of and false misceptions that it was going to cause a mental illness, that it was very dangerous. People that took psychedelics were going to end up permanently in a state of psychosis, that people that took psychedelics were going to cause more problems than they had to begin with, and and we really don't find that that's true. If people have a history of psychosis or a family history than we would, I mean, those are not people that this might not be the right medicine for them. But I think on the other side of that is there are all some people that think that this is the magic cure and that if you take a psychedelic one time, all of your problems are going to be resolved. And the reality of that is it's actually just a tool in this sort of uncovering of things that are really difficult to work through, and for a lot of people it's the start of working through some things that have been really difficult. So it's just like a tool, you know, more more so like a another different form of therapy to try to help people through, just not not a match bullet like that. What some people are looking for then right, and I think that's an important for people to really understand, because it's not going to, you know, tomorrow, you're not going to wake up and everything that has been a problem is just suddenly gone. Right, you know, it's it. For a lot of people, it takes months or years of integration work and really working through what their experience taught them, what things they feel like they need to change, what things need to be different in order for them to really make their the most use of their experience. Right. Okay, so you said it's used as a tool. So how does this help with therapy?...

Is it because it might help lower inhibitions or bring somebody to a present, like reconcile some memories or feelings or whatever is going on with somebody's past that allows them to bring it forward to the present? Is that sort of the way that it's working, or it might getting that totally wrong. So there's a couple of different there's definitely like multiple ways that it's working. And so one of the ways is that it it creates what's called like neuroplasticity and neurogenesis, meaning we're able, we're in a space of new learning, but also we're in a space of some set those can to enhance like brain growth and growing new neurons and new neural hathways in the way in the brain which which is huge right, like, yeah, something the same for your most of your life and then all of a sudden you have an opportunity to do something different. Than a really big deal, right, because our brains are structured in a way to conserve calories. Like, I know it's a strange thing to consider, but our brains use almost a quarter of all the calories that we take in right, or constantly in this state where it's just trying to cut cat like save calories for things that it might need later. So if you are in the habit of doing something the same every day, every day I get a donut on my way into work, instead of your brain making a different choice, it would have to use a different pathway. So your brain just goes no, we're just going to keep doing it the same way, right, like or you take the long route to work, no good reason, you just do. Your brain just decides it's going to be easier for me to keep doing it this way than to make a new choice. Really big opportunity that that we can see in the use of psychedelics, but it's strongly enhanced in a therapeutic context. Right. So if you have these the opportunity for these new pathways, but you just keep making the same choices. Well, that's then. You're just going to keep making the same choices. So that's one way that it's not an automatic you know, right, right. It's not going to just change things on its own. So it's helping people find a new mindset. Yeah, sets, creating, creating new, new I don't know how you would say that. I mean, I guess. I guess you said it new, new neural pathways, right, yeah, new path yeah, yeah, making new connections. That's that's awesome. I hadn't I didn't know that that's what was happening. That is crazy. That is pretty cool. Yeah, it's very cool. It's really amazing. Like one of the ways that people have described it is like fresh powdered snow versus going through the same tracks. So that's one of the ways that it's used to help, or it's it's expected to help, with substance use disorders and people that have addictions. Right, yeah, I was going to get into that. That's go ahead. Yeah, interesting. Soil Siman's been used and shown more effective at smoking cessation than any other drugs that we have on the market, which is pretty impressive just because it helps people to make choices that maybe they've wanted to make but haven't felt like they were able to make right, because breaking that cycle is one of the hardest things to do right. So if you're offering there's there's an opportunity for for something like this to help you break the cycle, it can be a game changer. Have you yourself seen that that changed? At something like that drastically changed within a person that they're able to break like if somebody's been smoking for, you know, decades, have you seen in your studies that that like a change that rapidly helps it? Maybe they've been trying to quit for a long time, but this is a thing that helped them do that. So I've definitely seen lots of research. I don't I can't nobody's coming to mind personally that I know that has had that experience. I have known people that have had other experiences where they had some pretty serious mental health conditions and have completely changed their...

...lives. So I know somebody that was a Goraphobic that didn't leave their house on a pretty regular basis for months, months and months at a time for the past probably ten years, and her experiences specifically with still ACIB and really shifted that, and so it's just no longer the case like it's. That's amazing. That is awesome. Yes, it sounds like yours. Yeah, you're just a totally different life, you know, and that's amazing for a lot of people. So it sounds like like the use of houcinogenics in our psychedelics, in in therapies kind of. It's you got a lot of positives coming, you know. And so are there any negative to me, or is there like, have you run into any legality issues, because maybe, you know, I'm not sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean there's definitely tons of legality issues. It's not legal in this country right. So most psychedelic substances, there are psychedelic experiences that are legal and more accessible. Ketamine is one drug that is classified as a psychedelic. It's actually an anesthetic, but it can cause it can cause psychedelic experiences and it's legal. It's still really expensive. It's not covered by most insurance, but I've seen that work in terms of treatment resistant depression. So I've known somebody that struggled with lifelong depres Russian and suicidality and had about I think six to eight months of ketamine treatment and is off their antidepressed medication and is whoa suicidal. I mean this is somebody. Wow, that's for most of the life. That sounds like a pretty extreme case. Why would why would the government or people be against this? Well, again, it hasn't been studied for incredibly long. Ketamine is one substance that's been studied because it wasn't an anesthetic and it's one of these safest anesthetics that we can use. Its use on animals. That's used some children. So that's why I think that's passed through. The VA does use that for specifically for suicidality. And but there're the other substances haven't been studying in Western ways. Right, like so the people that have been using payote for tenzero years probably understand pretty well that it works. Right. We haven't had it. We don't have the scientific evidence in the Western ways. Or you know, psilocybin's been used, there's episod been used for Sevenzero years, but we don't have they have a traditional understanding and knowledge that isn't accepted in the western medical model. Right, okay, Gotcha. All right. And what my question has been with this the guy legality shoes. How long has that been going on? Like you've mentioned that in the d's this was something that this c studies were going on and then they stopped because these laws came into effect. Right. How long has it been since people started like gaining more traction since that time, like and how much has it improved from after those bands were put in place? Yeah, so, so there's an organization called maps, the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Science, and Rick Goblin founded that and he's for the last thirty years been fighting to make it excess make psychedelics accessible, make psychedelics available for research purposes, with the end goal being to make it decriminalized. Right now it's the schedule one psychedelics or schedule one drugs, and to help move those into a place where they're more accessible. There's a lot of you know. So there's there's been a lot of progress. FDA, I think it was two years ago, the FDA just approved MDMA as a breakthrough drug in the treatment of PTSD, meaning...

...that Mbma shows better evidence of resolving PTSD symptoms than any other drug that we have available or any of wow we have available. Really Yeah, that that's right. It's really really impressive. The data is really really impressive and we're still waiting right like they're hoping that it is available and legal by two thousand and twenty two. Who knows, in the age of a pandemic and kind of the studies being halted and slowed right. So we don't actually know anymore what what the future looks like, but they've been pushing for it for a long time. There's research on Stilocybin, there's for treatment resistant depression. Again catamine for suicidality and treatment resistant depression. But it does, I mean they're there are risks to people right and so there's cardiac risks. So a lot of the research that maps has done has been very limited in who they accept into the studies. There's a lot of exclusionary criteria. But right now, if you wanted to take a psychedelic substance, that's the only legal way in this country. Research Study Right. So it's an interesting balance of trying to figure out how do we make this accessible and how do we help people that need the help there are. There are definitely ways of having psychedelic experiences that are not substance induced. So polyotropic breath is one way. There's a they're like float tanks. have been considered like bull had psychedelic experiences in those. There's this light. It's called the Lucia light and it was created by a doctor who had a death experience as a child and he wanted to recreate that for people. And I actually was able to use this at the maps conference in two thousand really like that's all sounds awesome. Yeah, it was amazing. I it was amazing. So like as soon as it's just this really bright white light and it flashes really brightly at a certain residence. So you sit under it with your eyes closed and for my experience, almost immediately I could start seeing fractals and colors and just had this really called sense of calm and bliss, like I can't wow way besides just I want to try that right now, like handsome. He's like amazing, almost like hanging out with Eddie. Yeah, it's almost like that, almost, oh man. But they're so there are some of those that are available. I know if you look it up, I think it's like it's called Lucia light three or something like that. We gotta check those out. There places where they have them, you can find them online. I just put winny in my card on Amazon. All right, it's yeah, definitely should. I will go visit if you do that. But it's but you will. You come visit in the summertime? No, Father Suone in his car poorn. No, definitely not. Got Mrs so. He say he's got Mr I got Mrs as too. I got Mrs. That's true. All right, well then it's really fine. Yeah, that sounds awesome. And have you personally? Besides, you know that one time they he's Holy Sup Shit. I sorry, guys, I just I just took it out right. Something happening. We got to hear what happened. Lucia number three home portal. Shipping to the s included eight thousand, four hundred and fifty dollars. Yeah, yeah, that's what's gonna take a little while, celsis. We'll get it. Go, get it. We'll get a go fund me going. Frank, don't start to go fund backs just yet, Girl. Get a go fund me. There's again. There's a couple of places in California and if you happen to be around any of them, there's one corona. There you go,...

...there, we go foso loves coronas. I do love Coronas. Watch, can I drink a corona while I'm doing this? Is that? Is that okay, probably could. It would probably be fine. All right, probably okay. All right, all right, that's good to know. Cool. So, so these these lights, so you're talking about those, are also using treatment? Or are they not yet, like they're still trying to experiment with them. Yeah, they're not used in treatment yet. It was created by two doctors. One of the doctors, like I said, had a death experience as a child. He uses the lights in his own practice and I want to say he's from Norway, but I could be totally wrong, but he's from he's from a European country that I'm drawing a blank on right now. He uses it in his practice, but it's just an interesting experience and when I did it I was like, Oh, this is what death is like, this is fine, like, this is great. You had to get stabbed or nothing. This is not what I'm used to from growing up a Fresnow, you know, like this is way calmer than at right like I think the anxiety of possibly getting stabbed is way higher than the actual experience of death. Dude, I can tell you. Walking home eighth grade from Yosemite Middle School, it's not a good experience. How many times you get stabbed? Frank well, I didn't get stabbed, though they're okay, times out, thought I might have. So I have to run. So you gotta catch me. Fool you. I'm a not an easy kill, right. You don't become the fastest kid in school for no reason. I'm just going to tell you that right now. Yeah, practice, that's it. Practice makes perfect. Yeah. So, Lisa, is there a you? You mentioned that this doctor who created the Lucilla is from Norway. Is there a country that is more open to the use of psychedelics as a form of therapy? Yeah, definitely. Other countries have been studying them longer. Other countries have different regulation and so, for example, Jamaica does not enforce any rules around Solocybins, the magic mushrooms. Mexico does not enforce laws around magic mushrooms, IAWASKA and IBA gain. So other countries definitely have different regulations. Peru, it's part of a religious heritage to Iowaka's protected, as is San Pedro and Watchuma. So there's there's definitely other places. You can go and have these experiences. There's definitely therapeutic settings where people can have these experiences as well, but they're not really accessible for most people right, like especially, I mean now that we're not allowed to travel. But of course, for a lot of the retreats would be, you know, four or Fivezero dollars for a for day retreat to do a few ceremonies or you know, some there were some. There's definitely some in Costa Rica and south and Central America where there are few thousand dollars for a couple of weeks, but that's still a lot of money, not including travel, right right. Yeah, now, that's that's definitely without a lot of like, outside of a lot of people's price ranges, for sure. Now I want one question that I have is you mentioned that there's there's used. They're using MDMA, so CIBIN, you know, and different types of drugs like this to treat different issues. Have you have you seen that certain drugs are better for certain conditions rather than others? So, for example, you mentioned MDMA for postraumatic stress,...

...right. Is that because that works better for that, or is it just because that's the only research they've had or most research has gone through the use of MDMA. Yeah, well, that that question is a little complicated because sometimes it's bold, sometimes it's that there hasn't been research around different substances for all of the conditions. But there's also you know, if they don't think that there's a good reason to research it, then they probably won't invest because it's expensive to do these studies and so they have to really prove that it would be advantageous to use this substance for this condition and the other part of it. So things like LSD is not heavily researched and part of the reason is that LSD trip can last twelve hours and that's how long I got to go to works. That is very taxing, not only on the person having the experience, but if you have a therapist or a psychologist or a nurse to all sitting with you, that's a lot of hours. I mean it's a lot of hours right. So, so part of the reason MDMA. It's much shorter acting and that's one of the reasons it's researched more frequently. Still, cyb and is shorter acting. So like for the six hours as opposed to the twelve, right Iowaska can be eight to twelve. I've again is one drug that has been researched specifically in relation to opiate addiction and it's been shown very efficacious and very effective and is used again in other countries to treat opiate addiction. But an I'm a game trip can last thirty six hours. Wow, wow, that is wow. I don't know how that would be exhausting. It is exhausting. It is very taxing and again it kind of makes you question, like is this really highly addictive? Like are if this really thirty six hours of a really difficult experience? Are People really going to want to do that every Friday? Seriously, that's like saying, Hey, I fall, do you me kick you in the balls every day at twelve o'clock? You Ready? Yeah, maybe not at twelve, maybe at one pm after my Ntil Whar. Yeah, probably not going to get a lot of takers reaching for a ball kick at about three fifteen. Suggestion process. All right, go ahead. So Nice, ellisa. No, no, that's okay, but I think absolutely. I mean different, different things have different purposes. For sure. There's not a lot of western research around a lot of the substances that have a longer lifespan. Right. So payoty and the CACTUS is like. Those have long is going to be a long time. It's ten to twelve hours and that can be really long. It's long to study somebody for that long right. And again, so solicide and and MDMA, because they're acting, are more research. Kenemine can be very short acting. Part of the way that it's administered is through an Ivy grip so that it has a longer life, because otherwise it can be as shortest twenty minute. Oh Wow, m yeah, like DMT. Some of those, some of them, some substances, have really more lives, like you know, you mentioned Salvia. That can that can be twenty minutes. Right. So some of those can be really short acting, which makes it easier, easier research subject. Right. So that's part of the reason, but there's also it's worth studying. I've again for opiate addictions, because it works...

...and people have seen really good outcomes and that's important, especially now because of how much the opiate crisis as has like really taking over the healthcare system currently, right, like, right, it's become such a big issue. So on that note, like, what do you see of the future in studying psychedelics and helping with these with these conditions and issues with the people are having, and also what can people like us do to help, like getting more tracked behind his research? Yeah, so the biggest issue with researchers right, resourch the these are expensive and part of the reason that they get fund it is because there's an expectation that will be able to sell something at the end. Right, right, things like, you know, traditional medications got studied because at the end of it they're going to make their money back by selling this substance. But you can't patent a natural substance. So Mushrooms, the cactuses, Iawaska aren't heavily research because they can't be patents later. So there's not a lot of so basically, all these pharmaceutical companies don't want to touch it because there's no money in it. Right, right, exactly that. To people we want money, right. And also right if, at if these are medications that are here in full versus symptom management, that's a very different profit model, right, right. If we're resolving people's trauma instead of treating their anxiety for the rest of their lives, it's going to be very different in terms of potential income then it would be if we were, you know, just they were just on these medications for the rest of their lives. There's there's a few reasons that funding is to come by in the PSYCHEDELIC maps is one organization that is international, but it's based in it's actually based in Santa Cruz and they have been fun getting funding for the last three years. They're getting very close, but of course they always have new goals where they're trying to reach. So definitely, you know, just sharing and I think also this helps people to sharing the information helps people to be more open to it and more available to even seeing what the research is, because I still know quite a few therapists, and even especially psychiatrist and the doctors who are not open what the research is showing at this point. Just it's and it's new, right, and they're not there's they've been really limited in what research they've been able to do with the funding that they have. So I think sharing the information is helpful. I think you guys have any million dollar donors? Send them to to Support Fund psychedelic research? Oh yeah, I think I got five right now. Yeah, awesome. Well, to send the shall like you very there we go. Yeah, toss, toss one of them in and then toss one this way as well. Right, yeah, yeah, the report. Yep, in the car port. I'm going to give all funds with the premisters the Portuguese dairy farmer number. He loves, I dudes. Yeah, and so this is obviously something you would recommend it to people if they could, if they have the ability to do so, if they found other fun forms of treatment in effective, this could be something that they can do to help them with their with their problem. Whatever...

...is is our yeah, yeah, I think that it's, you know, like I said, it's not going to be a magic bullet, you know, and this is not the right medicine for everyone. But no lesson is the right medicine forever, right, yeah, everybody's different. Right. So, yeah, so I think, you know, I think that a strong feeling that everyone deserves wellness. You deserve to heal from the struggles, the things that you struggled with and and whatever that means to you, you know, like whatever living your best life is like, you deserve and so, for for a lot of people, traditional strategies might not have worked. They've already done yours therapy. They've already done em ardive for their trauma, they've already done to you know, done these things. So I do have a lot of hope that we can find medications through, you know, plant medicines and through psychedelics, that that will be the next tool to help those people get to the level that they hadn't been able to reach with other strategies. And again, I my biggest concern is I don't want people to you know, there are people that will take psychedelics and feel worse right like you still are going to have a lot of bags to unpack. You're not going to feel automatically better because you did this. So I just don't want people to have the sense that if this doesn't work, then nothing will, because again, it's just not the right medicine for everybody and it's just a tool. So you're still going to have to do the hard work of navigating the trauma and the chaos and whatever other struggles that people had to get them to where they are now. Yeah, I would imagine it would just be like any other form of therapy or or meant or health issues. You know what, you go to the doctor because you're leg broken. He, he's not going to fix it that same day. Ye, it's not going to get better that same day. It's going to take some time. Right, right, right. That's awesome, very interesting topics in anything else that you want to leave us with it on this on this subject before before we conclude this podcast, this episode, so least. I just I realized at the beginning you mentioned micro dosing and I could spend like a whole at least other another hour just talking about that topic. But you know, I think that's definitely something to that. Other countries it's more accessible. So Canada is you can purchase micro doses of Pulicibin and other substances and I think it has shown it's very low risk. So for people who aren't sure when the substance has become available, that might be a better step than jumping into a megadose of any substance. Right. So I would definitely encourage people to check out places like third wave. Third wave has a lot of really great information on psychedelics and also Dr James Faddiman has compiled a history of micro dosing. So he has protocols, has a really good standardized base of knowledge and information and Paul stand it's also has a microdosing protocol. So if anybody's interested, definitely check those places out. And that's a good start. At Lee well will add those two. Do the comment section will yeah, for sure. The listeners and I with everybody. Now that you mentioned that you have more to talk about this microdos that could be a different episode. We definitely want want to have you back. That the awesome to talk about microdosing whole separate episode, if you don't mind at all. Yeah, absolutely, this is one of my favorite things to talk about, so it's I'm happy to do that. Cool. Cool. I just want to say thanks again for for being on here and...

...joining us to day talking about the subject. It's learned a whole lot. Yeah, definitely cool to talk to you about this. Yeah, frank anything to add? Yeah, again, I just want to say, you know, it's a Lisa, thank you so much for joining us. One of the reasons I started this podcast is because I feel like our like we've known each other here, US three've known each other for a long ass time, right, you know, since we didn't know what the fuck we were going to do. We're all trying to figure it out and and you know what, Dude, I feel it's a Lisa. I feel like our collection of friends is so unique that I feel like the world needs to hear about our friends, because I've I'm never in my life have I ever had a group of friends that I have felt so comfortable and so like proud out to have as friends, because everybody's always picking everybody up, everybody's uplifting each other, everybody's doing something positive, not only for themselves but for the people, for everybody, you know, like just I'm just so happy that that that we're able to come together in and start some desis that we can share this with everybody. Thank you so much to Lisa. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for having me. And I'm part of that group. Yeah, sure, of course you're the honorary remember you're the doctor, the only doctor in the group, the other one that keeps as legit for sure. Otherwise would just be a bunch of jerkoffs. But now, sure, yeah, well, I mean I'm like not a medical doctor, I'm just term psychology, not like your mom's proud or anything, just like regular A. we're proud if you're you're better doctor. We're talking about you're talking about using psychedelics cure people. Regular doctors don't do that. Yeah, for Real? Right, let's throw those guys anything you want to share before we hit out, to least anything you maybe you want to share a website or oh yeah, listeners were nowhere they can go to get more information, and you just mentioned another website a little while ago. Yeah, so my I just got on instagram and demic started, because I wasn't at all. That's where I share information. I most monthly integration groups for experiences and that I checked information on Instagram at Dr Dot Se Lisa. Awesome. Thank you so much. All right. Well, that's a wrap everybody. Thank you for listening. Forget to follow us on Instagram at Jiujit titles. See to see that's Jiu J I er IOS C to see to stay informed on upcoming episodes and announcements. Also want to remind everybody don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on your favorites favorite streaming platform, or you can head over to our website to listen to the show or downloaded directly from there. You can find a link in our bio on our instagram profile page. I want to again thank Dr Selsa floors and I'll phonso for joining me today. We hope you all enjoyed the show today and learned a little bit about something like we did. Everybody takes awesome care of their bodies, you know. They go to the doctors, they look, we do a little bit of research and whatnot, but we don't do the same thing for our minds. So, if you're listening out there, take care of your mental health as well. Try a little mental wellness check every now and then. And we're living in crazy time, so take care of yourself out there. All right. Thank you, guys, for listening. Bred don't forget to register to vote. Take Care, be safe, keep rolling and training if you can out there, and hope the mode of us should. He's.

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